The Physics of Startups
00:03:29 · S0
[00:03:29] S0: Yeah. Okay, so maybe pep talk wasn't the right term for it. Um, and totally agree on that. But it's it's also, I mean, I find it personally uh kind of like liberating. We've talked about this in the past. Like sales, when I, you know, first launched my business, Cumbray, it was like I had this thing that I either had to convince the other person that they needed, I'd find either find the right presentation to give. Um it was like I was, I think there was this just like lingering thing of like, what do I do when they don't want this? How do I, how do I show them? How do I and it it was like it's this whole push mentality, which honestly, today it's it's actually a little bit even hard to access. Like, how did I used to think about it? It's hard to empathize with myself three years ago. Um, but I know the experience of it was a a bunch of presentation uh or a bunch of preparation that went into everything, feeling a lot of pressure, honestly, like sweating a bunch, like in the gulls, um, just being incredibly nervous. Um, you you write about it, uh and so like everything that you're saying about this founder that asked you about confidence, I was like, yep, yeah. I one been there. Um, and two, you know, I had a I had a conversation yesterday and I was like, I actually unrelated to this blog, I was I told somebody, I was like, actually, sales is now my favorite part of what I do. Like I just I enjoy figuring out if there's something that I can help with shaping it. It's like solving a puzzle dynamically that doesn't have that like doesn't have a like a defined outcome that you get to kind of like help shape with the customer. Um but you know, Rob, what are some of the uh you hinted at a couple of them, but what what are some of the things that let's just like get into the theory. You you said it's a theory problem. What is the what's the theory that you're hinting at there? Um how do what's the you know the implied theory that founders are bringing in? And then what's the way that we should be thinking about sales?
00:05:32 · Rob Snyder
[00:05:32] S1: Yeah, so the the implied theory in founders' heads is that sales is convincing. The reason you're going to buy something, the cause of you buying something is I convince you to buy it. And if you think that, and that's like a normal thing to think, if you're just kind of like new to it, or if you read literally anything that anybody writes on startups or online, you're gonna think that theory is um like it just makes sense. But if you think that you convince them to buy, what happens if they don't buy? It's your fault. It's because you didn't convince them, it's because you did something wrong and need to change, right? Like that's and and so that's like that that is kind of the or or like your product isn't good enough to convince them to buy, right? And so this sounds intuitive, like this, this like makes sense, but when we zoom out and ask the question, okay, why do people actually buy things? Which my frustration is it doesn't seem like anybody's ever asked that question. Um, when you zoom out and ask that question, you see the causal the causality here differently, which is people buy things when they are trying to do something and they are locked by their available options to them. So they are stuck. In that case, they will buy something that gets them unstuck. If that is your theory, you're going to approach sales entirely differently because you're gonna look for is this person in front of me trying to do something and unstuck? In which case, if they aren't, then nothing I say is going to convince them to buy. Yeah. And this like weight lifts off your shoulders of thinking that oh, I have to have the perfect script, I have to have the perfect tactics, I have to build my product more because people aren't buying, I need to add value, I need to poke harder. All of these things just fall away. And um, that's why I said once you actually get the physics, you get you you find Zen in sales. I actually don't know, just between you and me and the three listeners here. I actually have have no idea what Zen is. Like, I I like roughly know, um, but I don't actually know. And so, I mean, I kind of, but you know, like I know the way that like, you know, so um, so we couldn't get totally roasted on this this one that I have zen totally backwards. I did no reason.
00:08:31 · S0, Rob Snyder
[00:08:31] S0: Yeah, yeah. So like uh imagine a couple people that are definitely not Zen practitioners advising on uh on how to achieve Zen. But it's really, you know, for um maybe this is actually a moment where helpful to pause and like think about uh listener, um your experience with sales. Um like do you look if you're if you're honest with yourself, uh do you look forward to it? What is the experience when you're in the sales call? Like what is you know, where where is the anxiety that's um in there? If there's if there's like, you know, for me, um there were certain times that it was like people would schedule a sales call and I would look at my calendar and like there would be like this little pit in my stomach that's like, okay, it's got about to be showtime. And uh, you know, am I am I on for that? And or in a call, if it didn't, you know, if a person wasn't just like totally engaged, either that was very discouraging or um kind of un unmotivating. Um, or it would be like I would I had a hard time letting go. It was kind of like I had a clenched fist around like the thing that I had, and it was like, how do I okay, I'm not letting go of this thing, like how do I make this other person want this thing? Um, and so it's I it feels it's kind of like uh like there's a like a body signal that I I would get very tangibly, um, which was an indication. I didn't realize it. I thought it was just anxiety or introversion or something like that. [00:10:00] S1: It was actually you're not good at sales, right? Like there was that, there was that thought too, I'm sure.
00:10:00 · Rob Snyder, S0
[00:10:00] S1: It was actually you're not good at sales, right? Like there was that, there was that thought too, I'm sure. [00:10:05] S0: Yeah, exactly. Um and so there's probably there might be something in there that you know listener can identify in themselves. But you you write about a couple of these, Rob. Um, you know, founders delaying sales, uh performing, you know, the perception that you're performing poorly in sales calls and deals, um, the you know, taking rejection personally, struggling to get people to talk to us, um, you know, getting stressed and losing confidence. Uh Rob, how do these relate to this like kind of push, like trying to convince? Like, why why is that the core issue? And these are the symptoms.
00:10:38 · Rob Snyder
[00:10:38] S1: Yeah, it all comes back to you think that your job is to convince this person to buy. And so you you take that energy, you take that wanting, then like I want to convince you to buy, and it infects everything that you do and how you process what's happening in the call. It's like you look forward to the call on your calendar and you see, okay, how am I going to convince this person to buy when I've failed at that in the last 10 calls? And so this one's even more important. I need to try something new. I need to write like, and it's just you're coming at it with the entirely wrong theory and then misinterpreting what's happening in the call. You're you're listening for the wrong things, you're looking for the wrong things in the call, and you're finding them, but they're irrelevant. And then you're pitching, you're approaching your pitch and your demo. If you do a demo, you're approaching all of this from the wrong theory, and you're getting feedback and processing it through the wrong theory. That's all about am I doing good at convincing them to buy? Which just causes a ton of stress. I'm actually curious now, how like how stressed are you in sales calls now?
00:12:04 · S0
[00:12:04] S0: Actually, um, I I I'd say I feel a little bit of anxiety at the start. Um, and typically by the time that um somebody, you know, I start the question or I start the typical sales call with like, hey, it's great to chat. Like I know this was a random you responded to a random LinkedIn outbound or or email outbound. Like, why did you take this? And they'll we start this conversation, and then it's like my mind stops going into I'm nervous about talking with a new human being, and it goes into okay, what's yeah, how do I it's like I I switch into like pull mode on I don't know how to describe it. Um, but it's like I'm just trying to understand what's going on. And uh sometimes it's like, oh, okay, cool. Like we we help with that. Like I can I can do that thing. And and I actually, even when they're the the other experience, which is, oh, you had a different expectation for this call, or the thing that you are looking for, we don't really do. Um, in that case, it's like, all right, uh, you know, there's this a line I find myself using, which is, I don't actually think we're a good fit for you. Um, and then I'll I'll explain like here's kind of what we do. And sometimes they're like, yeah, that's not what I'm looking for. And it's like, okay, like, you know, no worries, great. Let me know if that ever comes up again. Um, or if it is uh, you know, if they we had we just haven't talked about that and we get to it, it's like, oh, okay, cool, like awesome. Let's it it just the conversation feels much more free, like less, less like, I need to give you all the credentials that I've ever done and like why we're super impressive and why we're perfect. And like, okay, how do I how do I figure out how to help one person to another person you accomplish the thing that you're trying to do? What it what what's I mean, that's my experience with it, Rob. Like, what's what how do you how do you feel about it?