Decoder with Nilay Patel
00:40:52 · Mitch Glazier
So we then created sort of this middle period where a temporary restraining order, a very quick legal action could take place where a judge could actually decide the constitutional question because nobody wants the platforms deciding constitutional questions. You know, the the people on both sides are like regular people. They're not gonna be sort of making ultimate determinations. And so that's ultimately where we cape down in the no fakes act which is the name of the federal bill that's now being pushed and whether the balance in there is perfect or not yet I don't know but I do know that we learned a lot of lessons from the DMCA and I think everybody is very aware that the first amendment sort of defenses are really paramount in this in any kind of regime like this. And that overprotecting on either side. If you overprotect on the first amendment side, then you know this also applies to a girl who's bullied in high school and some kid takes her face and sticks it on a body that's not hers. Right? You don't want that staying up when it shouldn't. On the other hand, I have the right to use your face for certain things because that's my free speech. Right? And it's it's really funny or I'm making a point about underlying character or something like that. So Yeah. I... Long answer, there's no perfect response. But I think this time we had like OpenAI at the table. We had YouTube at the table. We had people like, you know, public knowledge at the table who bring a different perspective than we would bring and that ultimately get to a place where I don't think folks are thrilled on all sides of it. But I think they think it's progress.
00:42:31 · Nilay Patel, Mitch Glazier, S8
[00:42:31] S3: It it's something. I will grant you that it's something. Right? It's it's better than we have now, but it's fundamentally the creation of a new intellectual property. Right? [00:42:38] S4: Absolutely. It is. [00:42:40] S3: And there's some balance there that almost certainly will track the same balance that copyright law and music has undergone over the past hundred years. Right? [00:42:48] S4: No question. Ad[00:42:58] S8: This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses, setup required, compatibility, and availability varies 18 plus.
00:42:58 · S8, S7
Ad[00:42:58] S8: This episode is brought to you by Google Chrome. You think you know a browser, but Gemini Chrome, that's new. It can help you with practically anything on the web, like restoring a vintage motorcycle from a 50 page restoration block or finally break down that long article you've had open for weeks. Gemini and Chrome is here for it. Ready to make anything online make sense? There's no place like Chrome. Check responses, setup required, compatibility, and availability varies 18 plus. Ad[00:43:23] S7: Support for this show comes from Outshift by Cisco, which is Cisco's incubation engine for frontier technology. Imagine a company where every department can talk, but none can work together. Decisions stall, people spend all day chasing updates, mistakes slip through the cracks. That's the challenge facing multi agent AI today. The fact is when AI agents work in isolation, more AI doesn't mean better AI. And if agents can't work together, you're just scaling the confusion. Outshift by Cisco is here to help. Outshift by Cisco knows communication doesn't equal collaboration. And in the age of AI, that difference changes everything. Outshift by Cisco is building the Internet of Cognition, an open source foundation for building multi agent systems. Agents share context, memory, and guardrails to get excellent results from design all the way to production. So instead of simply passing messages, agents can build on each other's work and move towards shared goals. Read the paper, experience the demo, and grab the code from outshift.com. That's outshift.com.
00:43:23 · S7, S9
Ad[00:43:23] S7: Support for this show comes from Outshift by Cisco, which is Cisco's incubation engine for frontier technology. Imagine a company where every department can talk, but none can work together. Decisions stall, people spend all day chasing updates, mistakes slip through the cracks. That's the challenge facing multi agent AI today. The fact is when AI agents work in isolation, more AI doesn't mean better AI. And if agents can't work together, you're just scaling the confusion. Outshift by Cisco is here to help. Outshift by Cisco knows communication doesn't equal collaboration. And in the age of AI, that difference changes everything. Outshift by Cisco is building the Internet of Cognition, an open source foundation for building multi agent systems. Agents share context, memory, and guardrails to get excellent results from design all the way to production. So instead of simply passing messages, agents can build on each other's work and move towards shared goals. Read the paper, experience the demo, and grab the code from outshift.com. That's outshift.com. Ad[00:44:30] S9: All new holiday drinks are now at McDonald's, like the frosted cranberry splash with Sprite, the Red Bull frosted cranberry energizer, and cookie butter coffees. It is the season for seasonal drinks at McDonald's.
00:44:51 · Nilay Patel
[00:44:51] S3: The initial debates about copyright law and music were about player pianos. Like, we've built huge institutions to manage these rights. I said I was gonna talk about Google a lot and the tension inside of Google when it comes to this is the next sort of nightmare law school hypothetical for you. Google has two conceptions of itself. YouTube describes itself as a licensing regime, right? There's a lot of content on YouTube, the creators make it, Google takes a license to it whether or not any creator ever gets to negotiate that license as a secondary, of secondary concern. There's a lot of music on YouTube and the industry had to fight its way into licenses on YouTube because music is existential for YouTube and the industry knows it has that power. There's a real back and forth. Maybe the only industry that has true negotiating power with YouTube is the music industry. And you can see this play out over and over and over again. On the other side of the house, Google search, it's a huge business is they will describe it to you as a fair use regime. Right, we're gonna ingest all the photos in the world and let you search them and that's fair use and we're gonna litigate our way through that. We're gonna adjust all the books in the world for Google Books and that's fair use and we're gonna litigate that and they have done that over and over and over again. You can go work with the people at YouTube, they're very reasonable. Nilay Patel a smart guy, he understands that he needs music on that platform to survive and he will build you the tools that you're asking for and he has. And then the people running Google are like, we're just going to eat everything and training an AI model is fair use. And just in that one company, they are totally at odds with each other. They're going to kill each other somehow. How do you make sense of that?
00:46:27 · Mitch Glazier
[00:46:27] S4: What's so fascinating to me about YouTube is that it is the first real lesson in the arc of sort of the DMCA where we real... Where where I think a technology based company realized that even if you win the fight on intellectual property rights, if you don't have partnership through a license in the actual market where fans are, you're not going to have the service that fans really want. And so it was the first time that you know we we took everybody realized that, you know, you can win the case but lose the business. Mhmm. And music is such a driver of YouTube, and I think this applies to sort of AI too, that having a pristine... Having pristine copies, right, that fans really want, and then having marketing partnerships and partnerships with people who invest with and partner with creators who have a better sense of how to create the bond between that particular artist that they've been living with and sort of building a brand around and understand versus, like, sitting in a cubicle in a tech company and, like, trying to decide how to connect the fan with the artist in the best way. Like that former piece is irreplaceable. And I think YouTube realized that and developed Content ID even though they technically won in court. Right? And didn't have to so to speak. And now it's so ingrained, the partnership is so ingrained that there's a there's a dependency or a codependency and and that's how it's supposed to work. It also works because of this concept in copyright law called substitution. Right? Like if what you're creating substitutes for something else, it's probably not fair use. That's what we're arguing in our case against Suno. You're basically creating music that is competing on the same platform right next to human made music and you can click on either one and you're paying the same subscription fee and so you're affecting the economic pool and you're effectively substituting in the marketplace.