00:31:51 · Dmitry Zlokazov
[00:31:51] S0: I've changed in how I operate after I joined Revolut. Probably because Revolut is a founder led company, and probably it's because Sofled. And also because my role is quite spread across many things. So my role at Revolut is leading product function across company, but also leading retail, which is a core part of Revolut's business. And it's very easy to be spread thinly across all those domains and catching up with 50 or 70 projects that are are being executed simultaneously, which would mean that, you know, you will just spend your entire week just just catching up on statuses, not really adding value to anyone. But but it's also, you know, it's also scary to not do it. Because what if there are some things going wrong, right, and you and you won't be able to stop it or steer in a in a better direction? So I think that's why also a lot of managers, especially in senior positions, they they kind of stay high level, and they don't go very deep into details. But so how we do differently at Revolut is to go very deep into details, we take maybe seven or 10 projects, which are most impactful for customers right now, and we go super deep into them. Like, really, really deep sitting with engineers, like, check... Like, reading code level and understanding, okay, how how it's built exactly and what's what's the underlying issue. And you could think that... Okay. But what what about others, like, let's say, 50 or 60 items, right, that are being executed? But the thing is that it actually... It's counterintuitive, but it works really well because, first of all, teams, they talk to each other. There are formal and informal ways of communicating through meetups or just, you know, meeting in the office. And they know which areas are being scrutinized right now and, like, which team is being scrutinized. And it also gives information on what are the current priorities in the company. But in addition, it's signaled to other teams that if they are not proactively executing things on the expected level, paying attention to all the details and being meticulous in all those details, especially in quality, they will be the ones that will will be reviewed to a such deep level, like next next phase, next cycle. So as a result, it also builds a great discipline.
00:35:01 · Dmitry Zlokazov, Lenny Rachitsky
And since Revolut is such a high concentration of very ambitious people who thrive for being best versions of themselves and grow. And it's very important for them to prove that, you know, they can they can deliver great things and build next, like, great company. As a result, they do everything to operate autonomously. And when you start diving deep into details, like, you see that everything is fine. You see the modus operandi, and you can understand, okay, if this team is on good track or not on good track. And if it's not on good track, it means that it probably will be one of your next areas of focus. [00:35:53] S1: Okay. So what I'm hearing is there's... You said there's 50 to 60 things kind of projects being built at [00:35:58] S0: closer to a 100, actually. [00:35:59] S1: Okay. Okay. So there's, like, a 100 things happening at any point, like features being built, products being launched. And you... And this is you and the founders choose seven to 10 to focus on, or is it just you? [00:36:13] S0: No. It's just it's just me. Right. [00:36:15] S1: Just you. Okay. And and then... And by the way, do you have, like, a leadership team that you're a part of with, like, a design lead, or is it just you basically at the top? [00:36:22] S0: So the way it's structured, my responsibility is product function. We also have a head of design function. It's also part of my team. But then all the other functions, they are separate, like engineering and data function. And all of them report directly into a CEO.
00:36:22 · Dmitry Zlokazov, Lenny Rachitsky
[00:36:22] S0: So the way it's structured, my responsibility is product function. We also have a head of design function. It's also part of my team. But then all the other functions, they are separate, like engineering and data function. And all of them report directly into a CEO. [00:36:41] S1: Got it. Okay. So you... So out of a 100 things you choose, here's, like, the seven to 10 things I'm gonna go deep on. These are the things that matter most to the business that if they don't go well, it'll have the the most down... Downside. And then you just... You're... You basically said you sit next to the engineers. You you get really involved in every detail. [00:36:59] S0: Yeah. Correct. [00:37:00] S1: Awesome. Okay. That is definitely counterintuitive. We had Brian Chesky in the podcast, and the way he approached this problem is he just cut down how many things happen at Airbnb And because he wants to be involved in everything. And so I think it's cool to hear a different approach where, okay, we can still do a lot of stuff, but I'm gonna choose. I'm gonna go deep on the things that matter most.
00:37:20 · Dmitry Zlokazov, Lenny Rachitsky
[00:37:20] S0: No. I think we will never cut down since it's just the appetite for growth and also entrepreneurial approach in the company is so high that we will never allow ourselves to give up on some great opportunities. But also this this approach is way more scalable. So while leadership and obviously founders themselves keep everyone accountable, go deep into details, it doesn't mean that they micromanage everyone. That... That's actually that's actually a very important thing. So the ideal position for any product owner is to be fully autonomous. And, again, it doesn't mean that you will never be challenged. But if when you're challenged, you can show all the logic behind decisions you've made, behind the roadmap. And even if metrics are not yet there, like, you you you will still, like, let's say, have this credit of trust to keep building things the way you want to build them. Eventually, yeah, you will you will be presenting the outputs of your activity on these weekly product reviews. But, again, it's it's not a micromanagement either. It's more like a, let's say, a last line of control to make sure that what we're building is all all makes sense and adds value and is thoroughly thought in all details. [00:38:48] S1: And then you said still every screen that is shipped, the founders review at some point. So it's not like someone shipping stuff without the founders seeing it in some form.
00:38:56 · Dmitry Zlokazov
[00:38:56] S0: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. They have, like, full overview over everything. Mhmm. But also, the... It it actually... It allows us to build so many things because there is actually little micromanagement. Like, if there was... If founders had to be, like, involved into everything, they had to... They they they had to to cut the things down. Right? But by giving people autonomy, they actually boost company growth. And and as a result, I think Revolut is is a strong outlier in the industry in terms of how many products being shipped and how fast they shipped. Another thing here is what I've mentioned previously is us investing heavily into platform and so that every solution is scalable from the get go so that we don't have any custom solutions. And I don't... For example, take our credit team. They ship new products like loans or credit cards in the country literally every month. And it's just maybe 300 people. And I think that, you know, a credit division in a in a incumbent bank is maybe, like, two or 3,000 people building just credit products for a single country. And our team is building it for 50 countries. So... And, yeah, it's enabled through this approach with platforms, which we build on top of small lean teams, which are fully equipped with necessary functions and also have autonomy in defining what what they're building, and the flat hierarchy with everyone being accountable and founders having direct view over everyone and inter... Intervening if necessary.
00:41:06 · Lenny Rachitsky, Dmitry Zlokazov
[00:41:06] S1: I'm gonna give people a list of the things you guys do. We... I didn't do this at the beginning because it would take too long, but you talk about all the products you're building and all the things that's going on. So I have, like, a list here that it may... It's probably incomplete, but just to give people a sense. So you guys have credit cards, debit cards, savings accounts, multicurrency accounts, domestic international transfers, joint accounts, minors, accounts for, like, less than people... Less than 18 years old, stock trading, cryptocurrency purchasing, loans. Is there anything big I missed? [00:41:37] S0: I mean, it's... Some of those things are huge by itself. Let's say stock trading. Right? It's it's not just stocks. It's also ETFs, bonds, and we're we're working on tax efficient accounts in different countries. And crypto, it's... We also allow stake in crypto, for example. We have on ramp, off ramp products. We have acquiring products. On credit, we have loans. We have buy now, pay later product. Even launched mortgages. We launched first mortgages in And [00:42:17] S1: this is a... And then all of these across 50 different currencies and countries. [00:42:21] S0: Yeah. 50 different jurisdictions with each with its own regulation, with its own requirements. [00:42:28] S1: Oh, boy. This is a... It's a good example of... Paul Graham has this concept of schlep blindness or schlepping, where people wanna avoid hard problems, but that's where the big opportunities are, solving really gnarly, painful problems. And that's basically what you guys did.