Latent Space: The AI Engineer Podcast
01:45:47 · Shawn Wang, Mihail Eric
[01:45:47] S0: Yeah. So this is your answer to where where AI software engineering goes next. [01:45:51] S1: Yeah. So, I mean, the factory is is, like, the tactical, but I think beyond that, there's, like, a... There's a question around, like, the role. Right? Like, what does the role evolve into? If if the factory is is running and, you know, full steam ahead doing its thing, the conveyor belt is is churning out code, what what do we do in all this? Right? And I think we... I think you and I, we had this discussion with Jerry at the dinner once upon a time, a few weeks back with Dex and Jerry Yeah. [01:46:12] S0: Yeah. [01:46:12] S1: Yeah. Around the around the factory. But, yeah, I I I think that there was this part of... At least the discussion points there, which I am pretty much on on board with is, like, increasing levels of abstraction, and then somehow there's someone still... Even a CEO of a company has to have enough oversight understanding of, like, different constituent parts to be able to make a judgment on direction. Right? To be able to course correct, to be able to set metrics, and things of that nature. I think there's a version that translates of that. There's a there's a... That analogy that translates to, like, someone who oversees the technical. We call it a manager of agents. We call it a, you know, different terms. They're all buzz buzzword y. But, in some some respects, someone who understands product requirements, constraints, technical constraints, kind of loops through all of those and knows how to adjudicate.
01:46:12 · Mihail Eric, Shawn Wang
[01:46:12] S1: Yeah. Around the around the factory. But, yeah, I I I think that there was this part of... At least the discussion points there, which I am pretty much on on board with is, like, increasing levels of abstraction, and then somehow there's someone still... Even a CEO of a company has to have enough oversight understanding of, like, different constituent parts to be able to make a judgment on direction. Right? To be able to course correct, to be able to set metrics, and things of that nature. I think there's a version that translates of that. There's a there's a... That analogy that translates to, like, someone who oversees the technical. We call it a manager of agents. We call it a, you know, different terms. They're all buzz buzzword y. But, in some some respects, someone who understands product requirements, constraints, technical constraints, kind of loops through all of those and knows how to adjudicate. [01:46:53] S0: Yeah. I will say that in the chair before you, we just had Anthropics head of products and head of engineering for the And engineering I was like, When your jobs gonna come by? And they're like, Not yet. And so if Anthropic's not there yet, you should not feel like it's imminent. Good, good, good. Did they say how long or are they just not yet? Not yet, but who knows? Definitely... There was definitely a lot of like, okay. Well, yeah, I'm doing her job. She's doing my job. Like, yeah. Yeah. I think it's
01:46:53 · Shawn Wang, S2
[01:46:53] S0: Yeah. I will say that in the chair before you, we just had Anthropics head of products and head of engineering for the And engineering I was like, When your jobs gonna come by? And they're like, Not yet. And so if Anthropic's not there yet, you should not feel like it's imminent. Good, good, good. Did they say how long or are they just not yet? Not yet, but who knows? Definitely... There was definitely a lot of like, okay. Well, yeah, I'm doing her job. She's doing my job. Like, yeah. Yeah. I think it's [01:47:27] S2: also interesting perspective for students. Right? You said there's a lot of sophomore undergrads. Like, you got two, three years to go to plan out what you wanna be doing. There's different ways to look at it from that, right? You're not straight in industry.
01:47:27 · S2, Shawn Wang
[01:47:27] S2: also interesting perspective for students. Right? You said there's a lot of sophomore undergrads. Like, you got two, three years to go to plan out what you wanna be doing. There's different ways to look at it from that, right? You're not straight in industry. [01:47:39] S0: The thing that I care... I'm thinking a lot about is, well, so one part of this discussion that resonates more with me is the loop stuff Mhmm. Where, like, okay, you you started writing prompts. Now you no longer write prompts. You write prompts. They write prompts. That's right. Right? And then you then you just keep going up. And I I think to me, the sort of recursive concentric circles nature going outward, but also going inward is something that builds the factory. I think you build up to the factory, not build down. That's right. But I think a lot of people will eventually start building down. Like you start from the top level, like what is my goal? And then you figure out the systems. That currently creates a ton of slop and you should not do that. But someday you will. Yeah. So instead of, so that will be my question to prompt you is do we... What is the sort of prime question that people exist to solve? Like, that is your thing, right? So let's say an engineer today, you are measured by your PR merge rate, PR contribution rate. Well, two years from now, that's gonna be ridiculous. Okay. Well, what's your main thing? I don't know. Money? People always go to money too quickly. It's something in between money and
01:47:39 · Shawn Wang, Mihail Eric
[01:47:39] S0: The thing that I care... I'm thinking a lot about is, well, so one part of this discussion that resonates more with me is the loop stuff Mhmm. Where, like, okay, you you started writing prompts. Now you no longer write prompts. You write prompts. They write prompts. That's right. Right? And then you then you just keep going up. And I I think to me, the sort of recursive concentric circles nature going outward, but also going inward is something that builds the factory. I think you build up to the factory, not build down. That's right. But I think a lot of people will eventually start building down. Like you start from the top level, like what is my goal? And then you figure out the systems. That currently creates a ton of slop and you should not do that. But someday you will. Yeah. So instead of, so that will be my question to prompt you is do we... What is the sort of prime question that people exist to solve? Like, that is your thing, right? So let's say an engineer today, you are measured by your PR merge rate, PR contribution rate. Well, two years from now, that's gonna be ridiculous. Okay. Well, what's your main thing? I don't know. Money? People always go to money too quickly. It's something in between money and [01:48:58] S1: PRs. Customer satisfaction, CSAT scores from your features. [01:49:02] S0: Even that's like a product decision, not really a code decision. Right? Like, I don't know. Like, I
01:49:02 · Shawn Wang, Mihail Eric
[01:49:02] S0: Even that's like a product decision, not really a code decision. Right? Like, I don't know. Like, I [01:49:07] S1: But if the engineering is evolving into, like, more of a PM engineer, like, product engineers, you know, hybrid, then they... Then I think that's... You know, that's my answer to the question of, like, what does the role evolve into? I think it goes without to say that I would today recommend to students spend more time thinking about holistic systems, not just your, like, single part of the the engineering puzzle, but how that ties in with... And, you know, and this is, like, practice ends up happening. Like, students for their capstone projects, I encourage them to go out and, like... In fact, what I give them as the seed of ideas for final projects is, like, the the YC request for startups. I'm almost like, go build a company. Like, you know what I mean? Like, go go build something interesting. [01:49:43] S0: What would people build faster?