Latent Space: The AI Engineer Podcast
01:53:36 · S2, Shawn Wang
[01:53:36] S2: Beats. Yeah. Did. Unless you're [01:53:37] S0: talking with someone else. No. [01:53:38] S2: No. There were like... There was a whole open claw. There was something else and there was Gastown. And the whole manifesto also really helped spur it into the conceptual. The people that would never use Gastown but learned about Gastown because you can read the manifesto. Like, there... There's a marketing angle to it.
01:53:55 · Shawn Wang
[01:53:55] S0: Yeah. I mean... So so I... But I do... So Steve is not necessarily someone to take literally, but direct... Like like, you know, directionally correct. You know? Yeah. And and so I think he's directionally correct on this one. And so if you're at the IDE stage, he's trying to move into a power user stage. Yep. If you're a single agent, you're probably trying to move to multi agent and blah blah blah. And you probably should try to build your own orchestrator. Right? That's it's all that. Arguably, this is kind of out of date now. There is more to The Software Factory beyond this, but this article predates The Software Factory. I do think one of those things where I'm open to... As an employer, I have this problem in my company today, which is I do not want to hire anyone who hasn't been through psychosis and come out the other end. Because I am currently paying for somebody to go through psychosis. And it's very expensive from his salary, very expensive from tokens, I'm getting nothing out of it and he doesn't get it. Like my feedback doesn't get through. And so like, it's almost like I would encourage your students to have psychosis and then come out and go like, okay, what was wrong with me? Because like, that's what Steve just went through, like a very public two year journey of this.
01:55:02 · S2, Mihail Eric, Shawn Wang
[01:55:02] S2: Yeah. It's weird on the student side. There's like a lot of industry, you think you're being productive, you're not, it's probably the student version, right? You're notion charting and making all these optimizations, personal assets like, I went through the psychosis, but nothing has changed. Right? [01:55:18] S1: Right. Right. [01:55:18] S2: So go through it. Go through it. [01:55:19] S1: Right. Yeah. I haven't seen this. I've seen a version of this from Boris, actually. Obviously, more geared toward cloud use cases, but I remember he made, like, a cloud artifact, which showed, I think more of it at the team level, but I think he had four stages, not eight stages. But it kind of rough... Roughly followed the same progression of, like, no adoption to... Through to, [01:55:37] S0: you know, I guess Yeah. Only four is good. This is a... There's too many levels. Yeah. Well, see... We'll see if Vivo can pull it up. But other than that, you know, zooming out. Have we, you know, discard... Discussed all the things? That's one. Oh, that's one? Okay. Yeah. Here we go. It is an artifact. Okay. So it's gated, assisted, parallel. What's the last one? Supervised autonomy and AI native. Okay. [01:55:57] S1: So it's zero index. So it's five levels. Right? [01:55:59] S0: Alright. Insert zero. Yeah. Wow. Actually, it's pretty good. I need to redo this in more more depth. [01:56:07] S1: Can you say native?
01:56:07 · Mihail Eric, Shawn Wang, S2
[01:56:07] S1: Can you say native? [01:56:08] S0: Yeah. Yeah. I I would give a shout out to dynamic workflows. This is one of those things that is a sub agent pattern Yeah. That the opening guys are also exploring that is clearly fitting. And and so it's basically you're writing a harness on demand for the thing that you're trying to do. Yep. And so this is maybe... Like, a lot of sub agent conversation is just you're copying the the parent agent. Yep. But you actually should be writing way more code and then, like, running that as a as a as a sub agent, and that is what the Anthropic people have chosen to call dynamic workflows. Okay. But... You know? [01:56:45] S1: Yeah. We... We've built a version as well. Yeah. It's it's a good pattern. [01:56:48] S0: For Monaco? Mhmm. [01:56:49] S1: Yeah. [01:56:49] S0: What does it do? [01:56:50] S1: Yeah. I mean, on the fly, it's really, harness sort of use cases for GCAM. [01:56:54] S2: Yeah. Oh, that's great. Yeah. I will note that when Boris wrote this, it's for team adoption for people that are listening. And also he says, Anthropic is on stage three. We're still trying to get to stage four. Wow. He's like, I am at stage four. I'm the guy. But it's not as simple as Steve's. Like, Steve is a very good personal do this, do this, do this. This is a much more... If you're running a team and you wanna AI pill your team and not just be a user of one. Anthropic is still at stage three. Don't don't be like... Yeah. Yeah. Okay.
01:56:54 · S2, Shawn Wang, Mihail Eric
[01:56:54] S2: Yeah. Oh, that's great. Yeah. I will note that when Boris wrote this, it's for team adoption for people that are listening. And also he says, Anthropic is on stage three. We're still trying to get to stage four. Wow. He's like, I am at stage four. I'm the guy. But it's not as simple as Steve's. Like, Steve is a very good personal do this, do this, do this. This is a much more... If you're running a team and you wanna AI pill your team and not just be a user of one. Anthropic is still at stage three. Don't don't be like... Yeah. Yeah. Okay. [01:57:30] S0: I mean, you should teach this. This is this is great. This is... This got all of the stuff that... This is... Everything that we talked about. There you go. I I can't believe I haven't come across this. Yeah. Take research. Yeah. Very, very good. Okay. That was a wild tour. One semester of Stanford in one hour... Two hours. Thank you for doing this. Any parting thoughts? Any call section? [01:57:49] S1: No. This is, thanks for... I mean, ton of fun. It's it's been a a a, you know, nine months in the making. I'm excited. This is, end of week one. Lot A to do. A lot to learn. I'm excited to see what happens with the... Especially the OSS partners and just getting students, like, deepened in the code of of some complex code bases, having them build some stuff. So, no, it'll be fun. Keep you guys posted. [01:58:08] S2: You're doing another version next year? You you need credits for students. If OSS people wanna get involved, they can reach out.
01:58:08 · S2, Shawn Wang, Mihail Eric
[01:58:08] S2: You're doing another version next year? You you need credits for students. If OSS people wanna get involved, they can reach out. [01:58:15] S0: Sure. Very good. Just because credits matter, do they want it? [01:58:18] S1: What? Do do they actually want the The students? [01:58:20] S0: Or they [01:58:20] S2: want... You do have credit card. I don't think a lot of students wanna spend for that. [01:58:24] S0: I I work on the AIU credit card. Yeah. [01:58:26] S1: No. I I I think... Look. I will start, like, I remember, you know, it was, like, you know, there's a certain number of credits for sure. But then on top of he's like, look, if they wanna go hog wild with this, like, let me know, and we'll do have these, like, one off experiments where they can just, like, scale up to a thousand plus agents. So This [01:58:39] S2: is email from Vector. [01:58:40] S1: Yeah. Email from Vector. Yeah. [01:58:41] S0: Yeah. No. Those kind of people are valuable. So this is Wilson from Cursor, right, who is like, I'm gonna write a browser. Right? Yeah. That's right. Those people who are ambitious and like, can actually execute, those are very valuable, and that's basically a recruiting call. [01:58:55] S1: That's right. Yeah.