Latent Space: The AI Engineer Podcast
01:07:39 · Jamin Ball, Shawn Wang
[01:07:39] S0: You know, it's and again, you look at open eye, it's tough. Like, who are they competing with? They're competing with NVIDIA. They're competing with Google. They're competing with Meta. They're competing with Anthropic. You know, like, they're... They have different lines of business that are all competing with giants, like the biggest tech company in the world. And it's like, it's it's a tall task to take on one at a time, let alone all of them at a time. But, hey, that's that's the game you take on if... You know, when you're a trillion dollar company. You know, the state... The stakes are just higher. [01:08:05] S1: Yeah. Okay. I wanna round out the Anthropic discussion, and then we can go to general commentary on other stuff. We... We've cheated a bit with Elorean and and TypeSafe. But have we covered the main debates that you've you've been engaged in? There's [01:08:22] S0: there's two others. So this is gonna be very, like, financially in the weeds. There... [01:08:29] S1: If you look at You can talk about convertibles. Yes. Exactly.
01:08:29 · Shawn Wang, Jamin Ball
[01:08:29] S1: If you look at You can talk about convertibles. Yes. Exactly. [01:08:31] S0: Yes. Okay. So on the balance sheet, you know, earlier in the episode, we talked about, hey. A 140,000,000 of cash raised... Capital raised, 134,000,000,000 of cash. That's what the the balance sheet shows you. What the balance sheet also shows is a... I might mess up the exact numbers because I don't have them in front of me, but I think about 108,000,000,000 of convertible notes payable as a liability. And so the question is, was that debt? Did they raise debt? And what you also see is a huge portion below the operating income line of other income and expenses that makes it look like they have a huge net loss. They're both related. And let me explain. So any company and any startup founder listening to this would understand and appreciate this. There's different ways to raise capital. You can raise preferred equity. You can raise converts. You can raise safes. There's a whole different host of options to raise money. Anthropic, just like every other startup, did everything. They raised some preferred equity. They raised some converts. They raised some safes. And along the way, there's different reasons that certain investors of the company might prefer one or the other. When it comes to strategic investors, there's even more reasons why they might prefer one or the other. And I think it's it's very well known that some of the strategic investors, Amazon and Google in particular, were very large investors and very big owners of Anthropic early on. And...
01:08:31 · Jamin Ball, Shawn Wang
[01:08:31] S0: Yes. Okay. So on the balance sheet, you know, earlier in the episode, we talked about, hey. A 140,000,000 of cash raised... Capital raised, 134,000,000,000 of cash. That's what the the balance sheet shows you. What the balance sheet also shows is a... I might mess up the exact numbers because I don't have them in front of me, but I think about 108,000,000,000 of convertible notes payable as a liability. And so the question is, was that debt? Did they raise debt? And what you also see is a huge portion below the operating income line of other income and expenses that makes it look like they have a huge net loss. They're both related. And let me explain. So any company and any startup founder listening to this would understand and appreciate this. There's different ways to raise capital. You can raise preferred equity. You can raise converts. You can raise safes. There's a whole different host of options to raise money. Anthropic, just like every other startup, did everything. They raised some preferred equity. They raised some converts. They raised some safes. And along the way, there's different reasons that certain investors of the company might prefer one or the other. When it comes to strategic investors, there's even more reasons why they might prefer one or the other. And I think it's it's very well known that some of the strategic investors, Amazon and Google in particular, were very large investors and very big owners of Anthropic early on. And... [01:09:51] S1: Yeah. Go go ahead. Sorry.
01:09:51 · Shawn Wang, Jamin Ball
[01:09:51] S1: Yeah. Go go ahead. Sorry. [01:09:52] S0: And and so early on, Anthropic and Google, twenty three, twenty four, twenty five, a lot of the dollars that they provided the company were in the form of converts and safes and notes. Those... The value... The the value that those converted at at the time was pegged more towards the valuation those companies were raising at at the time. Why might they prefer a convert? Well, they're public companies, Google and Amazon. If they have an ownership in a third party that exceeds a certain limit, they now have to start reporting more on that, look through ownership. Right? If you own 20% of another company, you almost have to It's consolidated financial statements. Exactly. And that company's losing a lot of money. You now have to report that loss on your bucks. And so it's... They did... You know, strategics don't want to hit certain ownership thresholds. So, hey. Give us a convertible. Give us a note. We'll give you cash. You haven't given us shares yet, and so we don't have that equity ownership. We don't... We haven't gone above those thresholds. Maybe Anthropic didn't wanna give them voting shares. I don't know. Right? Let's have your shares convert into nonvoting shares because we don't want the governance of a supplier or strategic. I'm totally speculating and hypothesizing. [01:11:01] S1: These are all reasonable reasons to
01:11:03 · Jamin Ball
[01:11:03] S0: do it. Reasonable reasons why, hey, they were converts. But the conversion price was at a much lower valuation relative to what it is today. And so when you look at the balance balance sheet have to balance. You have assets equal equity plus liabilities. It has to balance. And so when you raise a convert, you get cash. Your assets go up. Well, if your balance sheet's going to have to balance, your liabilities also have to go up. And it makes sense. A convert is a promise for shares in exchange for cash. And so Anthropic took on that liability. And at the time, the liability matched the cash raised. Now what's happened to Anthropic's valuation since 2023 and 2020 It's gone way up. And so now what happens is the dollar value of your liability, because you promised shares at a price, the dollar value of that liability has skyrocketed because the valuation of the business has gone up. What does that mean? Okay. Now the liability looks big. It looks like $108,000,000,000 debt that Anthropic raised. The reality is this, they didn't raise $108,000,000,000 of debt. There was about $11,000,000,000 in those combined convertible notes. About $6,000,000,000 has already been... No. $5,000,000,000 has been converted to equity. There's 6,000,000,000 outstanding. The market value of that 6,000,000,000 is 108,000,000,000 because the company's value has appreciated meaningfully. And so there's this debate of like, well, they have 108,000,000,000 of debt on the balance sheet. They haven't raised 141. They've raised 141 plus 108. That debate is just misguided. There is no debt on the balance sheet, and the 11,000,000,000 of converts is inclusive in the 141,000,000,000 of total capital raised. And so debate one of Well, have they already generated?
01:12:55 · Shawn Wang, Jamin Ball
[01:12:55] S1: Say good job summarizing this. [01:12:56] S0: Yeah. But it actually goes deeper. Yes. That's just the balance sheet. Okay. Now let's look at the income statement, the P and L. They have an operating profit. You could say, Great, GAAP operating profit. But what comes below operating profit? Net income. Someone could say, well, in the first six months of 2026, they had negative $80,000,000,000 of net income. So you could say, and this is a debate, this is what people are saying, again, it's very misguided, they're losing $80,000,000,000 It's true. What a terrible business. Technically, by GAAP accounting, is. Okay, let's go back. And I'm gonna go back to the balance sheet. The liability has gone way up. That liability is now 108,000,000,000. Okay? Let's think about the balance sheet. Assets equals liabilities plus equity. As liabilities have gone up, two things have to happen. Either your assets have to go down or your equity has to go down. Well, your assets haven't gone down. That means your equity, the value of your equity has to go down. This is where it might get a little complex. But how the three statements link is Yeah. [01:14:04] S1: People can take accounting one zero one. [01:14:05] S0: Net income on the P and L flows to retained earnings on the equity value of your balance sheet. And so what has to happen as that liability has gone up, retained earnings has to go down by the same amount, which basically means net income has to go down by the same amount because net income on the P and L flows to retained earnings on the balance sheet.