00:25:02 · Waseem Daher, Aditya Agarwal
[00:25:02] S0: Even at IPO, it's like that's people... If you talk to CEOs that have IPO ed their companies, with the founders that have IPO ed their companies, they'll tell you the IPO is the beginning, it's not the end. [00:25:13] S1: The first thing after probably the first, you know, evening of champagne is that, fuck. We better have two good quarters. You know? So, like, you know, because, like, lockups and two... We need to make sure that we hit our numbers. Right. In fact, the game actually becomes a lot more intense. Short term. Yeah. Short term, intense. Exactly. Yes. [00:25:31] S0: So I think, like, Insight one as well, you cannot beat the game. And so if you're if you're playing it, like, I just need to get to the final boss and beat the final boss, and then I'll have to finish the game, you're gonna be pretty unhappy because, like, the game, in fact, never ends. Right. And so instead, I think you have to say, well, how do I make the day to day one that is on balance enjoyable and fulfilling for me? Like, am I learning? Am I being stretched in ways I like? Am I being challenged? Am I working with people I like? And this... Again, it kinda goes back to the thing we talked about at the very beginning, which is like, if the day to day elements are ones you find kind of enriching and rewarding, you will have the endurance to slog through. Yeah. If the day to day stuff starts to suck and it remains bad for an extended period of time, you will give up. It's just like it will grind you down eventually.
00:26:19 · Aditya Agarwal
[00:26:19] S1: Yeah. It's... Before you get on to... I think you had multiple points there. I'll I'll add a couple of things. One of the things that Mark said to us at Facebook that has always stuck with me, he's like, there will be a lot of stuff about us externally. Right? There'll be lots of times when people are saying we are awesome. There'll be lots of times where people say we suck. It is rarely as... Like, we are never as good as the world thinks we are. We are never as bad as the world thinks we are. It's all just kind of like more muted. And the external world is kind of used to amping up either signal up or down. So it really is just about finding that constancy. And the second thing I often think about, and this is a little I think as... And I I think of SPC as a startup. As a startup founder, you're not allowed to use this language, but you almost have to disassociate yourself a little bit from the start up. Right? So the way I tend to think about it is that it's very hard when, like, you think you are the start up because that means the game in some ways... If the game ends, that means the start up dies or you die. I mean, thank... You know, but that sucks. But I tend to think of it as, listen, I hope I'm at SPC for a very long time, but this institution will continue after me. And my goal is that as long as I'm here, I leave it better than where I found it. And having that distance actually, I think, allows you to manage your own emotions as being a little bit separate from the company. And I'm still learning how to do this, but I think it's something that I've had to develop over the years where I am not the startup. And I think it's tricky because in some ways, in the early days, you are the startup. There is nothing. The IP is you. The product is like you. You need to both believe that, but have some distance.
00:28:11 · Waseem Daher
[00:28:11] S0: I strongly agree with that. You have to take everything very personally and deeply care. Right. And you can't let it be the soul defining thing of your existence in the sense that, like, this is an adjacent point, which is in general, I think when folks get to the point where they raise the the series B or the series C, and you have an opportunity to take a little bit of money off the table, like a little bit of money, you definitely, definitely, definitely should. Because it allows you to swing for the fences. It allows you to take bigger bets. Because there is something very important about being able to say, well, if this thing totally fails, and obviously I hope it won't fail and I don't think it will fail, I would see Daher as a person like, I'm not gonna be homeless. It'll be fine. My family will still be okay. And it's a sort... Like, again, it's like separating you and the start up. You sort of... To let the start reach its full potential, you need to be at peace with a world in which it doesn't succeed. Because if you're operating from a place of downside minimization, you're not going to actually be successful. You have to be willing to place bets that may or may not work.
00:29:15 · Aditya Agarwal, Waseem Daher
[00:29:15] S1: Yeah. I think this is actually, for me, one of the fundamental, in some ways, paradoxes of being at a startup where you both have to deeply, deeply care and in some ways really believe that you can shape the outcome. But then also be at peace with the fact that the world is very complex, right? The world will do things that are completely out of your control. And that perhaps totality of things, your ability to control things might actually only be 5%. There's a bunch of shit that might happen externally that you cannot control. But that doesn't mean that you can give up and in some ways let go of what you can control. Right? I think this is very difficult to kind of, like, internalize because they do... They are somewhat contradictory. But if you can find that balance sometimes more than other times, I think it really is helpful. [00:30:02] S0: I agree. I mean, it's... I'm not, like, a big card player, but it's, like, kind of, like, you're dealt a certain hand in your poker game. And, like, sometimes it's a bad beat. Right? But it's like, well, these are cards I had, and I played them as well as I could've, like Right. Given what I knew at the time. It's like, I think that's the kind of thing that you're sort of aiming for.
00:30:02 · Waseem Daher, Aditya Agarwal
[00:30:02] S0: I agree. I mean, it's... I'm not, like, a big card player, but it's, like, kind of, like, you're dealt a certain hand in your poker game. And, like, sometimes it's a bad beat. Right? But it's like, well, these are cards I had, and I played them as well as I could've, like Right. Given what I knew at the time. It's like, I think that's the kind of thing that you're sort of aiming for. [00:30:17] S1: Yeah. Absolutely. And that... You know, and I think that the other thing that helps you with startups is just speed. Right? Because the quicker you can recover, if you do have a bad beat, the more you can also have some chips on the table in some ways to kind of play the next hand. It can help a lot. So what do you think most founders actually get wrong about company building? [00:30:34] S0: I think this is a consensus view at this point, but I think you basically as the company grows, you internalize this advice of, oh, I need to hire VPs. I need to hire a head of sales. I need to hire a sales rep. And then all of those people the machine is what interacts with the world, and you get the data fed through the machine. And I think that's actually very dangerous. Again, this is not a super hot take, but it's like you want us to remain as close to reality as possible, and that frequently requires you to go and do stuff yourself or inspect things yourself.
00:30:34 · Waseem Daher, Aditya Agarwal
[00:30:34] S0: I think this is a consensus view at this point, but I think you basically as the company grows, you internalize this advice of, oh, I need to hire VPs. I need to hire a head of sales. I need to hire a sales rep. And then all of those people the machine is what interacts with the world, and you get the data fed through the machine. And I think that's actually very dangerous. Again, this is not a super hot take, but it's like you want us to remain as close to reality as possible, and that frequently requires you to go and do stuff yourself or inspect things yourself. [00:31:07] S1: Yeah. I'm actually... I'm generally curious at which point in our collective, I would say, wisdom on building companies, we came to this idea that there could be people who were not actually on the front lines learning about what is happening so that they could manage through abstractions. Because more and more, I'm like, that does not make any sense. [00:31:29] S0: Yeah, it basically doesn't work. [00:31:30] S1: It just doesn't work. Yeah.