Masters of Scale
00:13:27 · Demis Hassabis
[00:13:27] S2: Well, what we're doing, and I think other leading labs are trying to do, is you've got to... So there's more prosaic things like make sure cyber defense is accelerating faster than cyber attack and making sure you give access to trusted cyber defenders first on maybe slightly fine tuned versions of your general models that are fine tuned for cyber defence. And so you keep the defenders ahead of the attackers. It's a pretty tricky problem to do in general. Also, building much more hardened sandboxes. I think a lot of the cyber kind of issues that we've seen in the last six months or so could have been addressed with better engineering, more robust engineering. I think better, you need really amazing monitoring systems. You know, they shouldn't be possible for agents to be running for for weeks without anyone realizing. You know, these kinds of things that we've seen some of our some of our competitors and others, maybe, you know, it's just the beginning of this happening. So I think everyone will get rapidly better, but they have to as well because otherwise, something bad's gonna happen inadvertently, some kind of incident, you know, I sometimes call it like an oil spill, is going to happen on the current trajectory if we're not if we don't get collectively, if everyone doesn't pay a lot more attention and put a lot more resources on these types of systems. Eventually, you kind of want formal guarantees, maybe some bounds around what these systems can do and how robust test, how robust, like, the things like the guardrails are. This is actually something I encourage a lot of top mathematicians that I know well who are maybe, you know, pretty sad about the state of pure maths, but they... Their skills would be incredible if they pivoted to these types of domains, more, like complexity theory, game theory. How do you, and, of course, we're not gonna have to start dealing with swarms of these agents, perhaps potentially collaborating in some way. How does one keep track of all of that?
00:15:14 · Reid Hoffman, Demis Hassabis
[00:15:14] S3: Should there be ways that the labs are encouraged, required, permitted to collaborate on this? And if so, what should some of those ways be? Because it obviously gets stronger if there is sharing of intelligence, methodology, mutual accountability. [00:15:31] S2: Yeah. Mean, been lots of proposals, I've been working on these things a lot. You saw my essay over the summer, maybe some of you read it, about potential for like an SRO, industry run standards body with some kind of government oversight over it. I think something like that is going to be needed, then ideally it becomes international, you know, it's US led, and then obviously the state of geopolitics today makes it, and and our international institutions are very, very weak as we all know, just at the time when we need them to be strongest in a way. So that's a bit unfortunate, but we've got to start somewhere. [00:16:04] S3: By the way, British, a bit unfortunate is holy just to translate...
00:16:08 · Demis Hassabis
[00:16:08] S2: To translate? Another translation. Yes. Like tea time and dinner time. Yes. Exactly. A bit unfortunate. So we're trying to... Various of us are trying to do things about that. And that essay did have an impact and... You know, in the White House and in the administration and and with our colleagues. Eventually, you know, I think some of that energy became the accord that you... The famous letter everyone signed, which is which is better than nothing. Don't think it goes far enough, but it's a start. At least it acknowledges from all of the main players the issues that are there and that they need to be addressed. It doesn't say too much about what to do about them, but that has to come next. At least it gives air cover, I think, for the teams to work together what sorts of benchmarks, what are safe... Best practices on safety, what are you seeing in terms of analysis of what things could happen with these types of systems. And I do think there are some things that generally all the leading labs do agree on, like the idea of third party auditors or evaluators coming in. Obviously, there's a question mark on which third parties, and I think we need a healthy kind of ecosystem of that, that actually, you know, you could have good start ups and companies doing that, that there's enough revenue there for them, and they should be given the amount of investment going into AI as a whole. A bit like there are auditors, you know, in the finance industry or in any of these industries. So I could see that happening, and some of the big players are moving into this, like Accenture, We're working in our other leaders are working with. I think they're a little bit ahead of the game because they've acquired, you know, a good start up, good friend of ours, Marc Warner, start up. So they have some expertise internally, but I think we need more of that. And then other things like, you know, the leading labs maybe red teaming each other before general release of these systems.
00:17:54 · Jeff Berman
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00:19:44 · Reid Hoffman, Demis Hassabis
[00:19:44] S3: So let's move from that to a little bit more of the fantastical. It started actually a few years back. I think it was a Google engineer who said, I asked Gemini if it was conscious and it said yes, so therefore it's conscious, which seemed like a little bit of a [00:19:57] S2: Yes, premature. [00:19:58] S3: A weak inference. But that's now gaining some motion with some of the things especially anthropic is doing and the way that it kind of strategizes thinking that at some point, it's almost like a Pascal's wager. At some point, there will be consciousness in these systems, and we want those conscious systems to look back saying that we were treating them the way... The same way that we treat a two year old. Mhmm. Which is, hey, we were good to you as a two year old, and so, you know, it kind of continues through. Obviously to many people that looks kind of wacky. Mhmm. Right? And so, what do you think... I mean, because part of what I think maybe many people don't realize is you also come to this from a depth of expertise in brain science. Mhmm. And you know, one of the things is not just a, oh, did the chat bot say it was conscious or not, is not a way to make a decision on this kind of thing. What do you think some of the ways to think about this is, and also how we should be deliberately trying to shape it?
00:19:58 · Reid Hoffman, Demis Hassabis
[00:19:58] S3: A weak inference. But that's now gaining some motion with some of the things especially anthropic is doing and the way that it kind of strategizes thinking that at some point, it's almost like a Pascal's wager. At some point, there will be consciousness in these systems, and we want those conscious systems to look back saying that we were treating them the way... The same way that we treat a two year old. Mhmm. Which is, hey, we were good to you as a two year old, and so, you know, it kind of continues through. Obviously to many people that looks kind of wacky. Mhmm. Right? And so, what do you think... I mean, because part of what I think maybe many people don't realize is you also come to this from a depth of expertise in brain science. Mhmm. And you know, one of the things is not just a, oh, did the chat bot say it was conscious or not, is not a way to make a decision on this kind of thing. What do you think some of the ways to think about this is, and also how we should be deliberately trying to shape it? [00:20:50] S2: Yeah, well, look, I think there's quite a few things to say about this. First of all, we haven't, despite thousands of years of thinking about this, there isn't an agreed upon definition of consciousness. So that's one issue, I think, and that's one issue with labeling things conscious, especially the hard problem of consciousness, you know, is it really feeling this internally like the way we seem to, You know, behaviorally, these [00:21:11] S3: things about you,