Uncapped with Jack Altman
00:40:39 · Ev Randle, Jack Altman
[00:40:39] S1: That's amazing. It's amazing. Do you wanna talk about bio? Obviously, you've you've got... I I feel like you've been really interested [00:40:46] S0: in robotics. You've Yeah. I have been. Mean, the... I was going to go to the dark place of cyber. We could do cyber first. Let's do cyber. Let's do [00:40:53] S1: cyber first. [00:40:53] S0: Because that would be that is one of the scary things. And this last week, there was the PHP thing, and people are very afraid, and understandably so. It does feel like we are in a point in time where one of the risks that is most imminently being expressed is a cyber risk, where we've spoken to some prominent CEOs in the last few weeks who have told us that they've pointed frontier models inward and said, hack us. And the model's like, I'm going to hack the shit out of you. [00:41:22] S1: And it does. They said that day after day, they were getting company ending vulnerabilities surfaced. Yes. That like if it had been actually hacked from an external force. [00:41:33] S0: And these are great companies with great Vulnerable companies. With great engineering [00:41:38] S1: teams. Like tech forward companies. These aren't like old companies.
00:41:38 · Ev Randle, Jack Altman
[00:41:38] S1: teams. Like tech forward companies. These aren't like old companies. [00:41:42] S0: Obviously, when you attack internally, you have crazy advantages that outside attackers don't have. You've got all the data. You've got the code base. It's just a different thing. But still, it seems like fear could be on the horizon, and then you see all this stuff. So obviously, it's probably it's a good time to be a security company. But it is also a scary it's a scary first exposure of real risk, I would say. 100%. Yeah. [00:42:08] S1: And I think that the really scary thing is that cyber attacks, at least for the public, I feel like cyber attacks historically have been sort of an abstract thing, where at worst, your data was what... Like, your password for this website was was hacked. And then you get, like, some notice in the mail, and you, like, you know, you change your password, like, nothing actually happens. Yeah. And recently, there's been a lot creepier and more things that feel really personally intrusive that are both now possible and have actually been happening. And so I pulled up a few examples where there was a researcher who used Claude to disable a webcam's recording indicator. Wow. So started recording without the light coming on and accessed the microphone and the firmware. [00:43:03] S0: That's scary.
00:43:03 · Jack Altman, Ev Randle
[00:43:03] S0: That's scary. [00:43:03] S1: All those things. Like, a French supermarket suffered an attack that manipulated refrigeration controls and actually spoiled food. So I think that the issue is that now the systems that we thought were secure, because these are open source systems that have existed for fifteen years with humans looking to patch them and hack them in all sorts of ways, these critical systems to firmware and hardware and the overall internet, these are now getting exposed that only have been able to be exposed via these AI models. [00:43:35] S0: Yeah, and you can patch the software, but can't really patch the hardware. Yeah. [00:43:37] S1: And so it's like, you know, people are like, oh, like, you know, like, update your smart TV. It's like, what the fuck? Yeah. Like, my TV [00:43:44] S0: What's wrong with the TV? [00:43:44] S1: Like, what... Like, you know, and they're like, oh, disconnect it from the Internet. Yeah. Like, well, that's really scary. [00:43:48] S0: Yeah. You have a Samsung frame. Smash it immediately.
00:43:48 · Jack Altman, Ev Randle
[00:43:48] S0: Yeah. You have a Samsung frame. Smash it immediately. [00:43:50] S1: Yeah. Like, yeah. Smash all of your smart devices in your home or disconnect it from the Internet. So I feel like it just feels so much more widespread and intrusive Mhmm. Than than before, which is why it's now sort of... Like, I I, you know, I definitely bought YubiKeys a couple of days ago. Like, I I wanna go through the whole... Actually, Andre Karpathy has a really good blog post on digital hygiene Yeah. And just things you should do. And I feel like for the first time, given the the parallelism and the scale that people can use and just the extent to which these things that we're seeing as strongholds like PHP are being hacked, it's like, Okay, this is for real. I think the really interesting thing there's one other piece of the cyber thing is this idea of obliterated models. [00:44:34] S0: Mhmm.
00:44:34 · Jack Altman, Ev Randle
[00:44:34] S0: Mhmm. [00:44:35] S1: So an obliterated model is an open weight model that has its internal sort of safety guards removed and... To help help with its work. Because, you know, ultimately, like, when the Hugging Face incident happened, they had some complaints where they're like, we had to use an open source model because we get the Frontier Labs to turn off the safety guards in time to help us with the hack. And so obliterated models are literally open weight models that have no safety guards. So it's very scary, and I think one of these is actually what some groups in China have been using I think it's called RTX have been using to commit some of these hacks globally. It's also an incredible defense tool for enterprises. Because you take an obliterated model, you do what that CEO told us, and you just say, hack us. Like, hack us to death. But obviously, you're the one using it, and so nothing actually happens from it. And that is, I think, going to be an incredible tool. You need these models that will because guess what? The adversaries have obliterated models. The adversaries are not working with safety controls. You need to see the tools that they're using and use it on your own infrastructure. And I feel like we're going to hear a lot more about this idea of obliterated models.
00:45:46 · Jack Altman, Ev Randle
[00:45:46] S0: By the way, I think the tech world, which I think is mostly a good thing, at first, I would say reacted negatively to pacing the frontier type stuff. And there's much more of just a let it rip mindset, which is very libertarian, tech forward good. I think that's basically a good thing. But this security dynamic is an instance where it not going too fast would be very helpful because you actually do want the defenses to penetrate before we have four generations forward of models. That's right. Because you do need things to get a little time to harden against this stuff. [00:46:21] S1: It is, but this is the crazy thing is how long do we think it's going to take to harden all this stuff? [00:46:27] S0: It's going take a [00:46:27] S1: long time. Think about I don't know, think about a hospital system in West Virginia. How long is it going to take for them to because I think if you talk to some of these cybersecurity professionals, they're like, we basically have to re architect. This is the biggest code modernization project in all of history. [00:46:43] S0: That's what we need cognition for. [00:46:44] S1: That's right. That's what we need. That's what we need cognition for. [00:46:48] S0: But I I think like I was going [00:46:50] S1: to try to do an ad read there. Yeah. Cognition. Update your Cognition. Update your code. And security.